A moment on England, Ireland, the USA and West Wing.
Wednesday, 31 March 2004 23:23![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
apollaI'm pausing with the usual high-jinks and rock and roll frolicking to post about something:
A quote from West Wing season three that leads me to believe that at least a few Americans have a concept of what Ireland is:
Lord John Marbury, Britain's ambassador says in 'Dead Irish Writers' when talking to Toby Ziegler about a Sinn Feiner/terrorist man coming to the White House:
"The shadow on our souls... the biblical sins of the fathers. Slavery is your [America's] original sin. That and your unfortunate history with your aborigines."
"Native Americans," Toby cuts in.
"For the English it's Ireland," finishes Marbury.
The writers have, in my opinion, got it spot on. I don't always agree with things said in the West Wing, although I usually do and love the show. But this... it's still echoing in my head because... it's exactly what it is. It's the tugging in my brain, the ripping in my heart every time I think about this whole godawful mess that was once called 'The Irish Question'. It has affected England and Ireland in both obvious and subtle ways.
The problems few of us understand anymore have been passed down to us from our mothers and fathers, our grandmothers and grandfathers and made worse by every generation, including the one above us and given the chance, our own. For England and Ireland, there seems to be no way to fix what's been broken for centuries.
And I swear to God, that breaks my heart.
A quote from West Wing season three that leads me to believe that at least a few Americans have a concept of what Ireland is:
Lord John Marbury, Britain's ambassador says in 'Dead Irish Writers' when talking to Toby Ziegler about a Sinn Feiner/terrorist man coming to the White House:
"The shadow on our souls... the biblical sins of the fathers. Slavery is your [America's] original sin. That and your unfortunate history with your aborigines."
"Native Americans," Toby cuts in.
"For the English it's Ireland," finishes Marbury.
The writers have, in my opinion, got it spot on. I don't always agree with things said in the West Wing, although I usually do and love the show. But this... it's still echoing in my head because... it's exactly what it is. It's the tugging in my brain, the ripping in my heart every time I think about this whole godawful mess that was once called 'The Irish Question'. It has affected England and Ireland in both obvious and subtle ways.
The problems few of us understand anymore have been passed down to us from our mothers and fathers, our grandmothers and grandfathers and made worse by every generation, including the one above us and given the chance, our own. For England and Ireland, there seems to be no way to fix what's been broken for centuries.
And I swear to God, that breaks my heart.
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no subject
Date: 2004-03-31 16:26 (UTC)Statements like that continue to fascinate me. Over 40 million Americans claim some Irish ancestry; many of us were raised on stories of when our great-grand whatever or great-great something left during the potato famine, or to avoid starvation/persecution/imprisonment/or just some hope of a better go of things during other times.
I know with a president like our present one; the intelligence of the American public should be called into question on a regular basis. But honestly, are we really perceived as being that ignorant of history? Is it because American pop culture is so prevalent that assumptions on American beliefs on world events are being culled from them? Because often if similar assumptions or questions were uttered by an American about nearly any other country on the globe; all holy hell would break loose and they would be tarred and feathered in effigy.
Or am I too brain dead from cross-coding equipment at work?
Additional note - I love that episode. I fangirl Toby and Leo on a regular basis. :D
*huggles*
no subject
Date: 2004-04-01 00:42 (UTC)I didn't mean the history of Ireland, I meant the 'problem' of Ireland. Unfortunately, many Americans do have an over romanticised idea of the Anglo-Irish situation. I'm not talking about the fact that most Americans could claim a little Irish for themselves or famine stories- I know y'all know those. I'm talking about the reality of what 700+ years of tyranny and oppression, racial superiority and so on have left us with.
I'm not talking about St. Patrick or Cu Chulainn, Joyce or Yeats. I love how proud Irish-Americans get about their ancestry, but most people, understandably, choose to ignore the hard stuff, the violent stuff in favour of great myths and great legends. But the reality is a lot different. It's N. Ireland getting to govern itself or not, it's whether the Rev. Iain Paisley can put aside his prejudices and lead and whether Gerry Adams is really a politician or an IRA man.
It's so complicated, and I certainly don't claim to know it all. It IS our original sin, no doubt about it, and what I meant was that Americans don't seem to get what Ireland means to England and what England means to Ireland. It's bombings in our shopping centres and pubs- Warrington, Bishopsgate, Ealing Broadway, Omagh. I should point out at this point that I'm not loyalist or republican, I just want, idealistically, a solution.
The stories Americans get told about their great-granddads coming over during the famine don't include things like being involuntarily shipped to Australia. They don't include the pipe bombs and hatred prevalent today. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it means that Americans, and I mean primarily people in power, should try to solve things, should assume they know what's going on. And it has happened before.
To answer your question: I suspect that Americans aren't considered ignorant (certainly not by me), but as a whole you are thought to know little about the history of Everywhere Else. This of course, is partly to do with another of your country's original sins: Rugged Individualism and it's sister theory, isolationism.
And I LOVE Toby and Leo!
no subject
Date: 2004-04-01 04:53 (UTC)Really? We don't? That is very interesting? So nice of your to tell me what our Irish experience is like. Thank you Clare, darling for enlightening the dumb American, yet again.
Although granted we do have that occasionally convenient ocean as a crowbar separation from the day to day hostilities. And let's face it - it isn't sexy and American reaction to it is not going to be the lead on our news let alone picked up internationally.
And by they way - you are really going to have to explain how you deem Rugged Individualism as an original sin. What exactly are you referring to when you use that particular term? I have a feeling that what you are calling Rugged Individualism is completely different from my interpretation.
Also don't you think that Isolationism, which really only became a true American policy post World War I, could really be referred to as an original sin? Let's face it - the US prior to the twentieth century did not possess the power or resources to deal with anything overseas, if for now other reason than given the small issue of transportation.
Isn't it also ironic that if isolationism is one of our "original" sins - that it has seemingly morphed into "unable to keep our big butt out of military actions"? LOL
...but it means that Americans, and I mean primarily people in power, should try to solve things, should assume they know what's going on. And it has happened before.
OK, did you just say that you want Americans to come in and clean up Anglo-Irish relations? Excuse the expression - but that would go over like a fart at a funeral. Besides - what would you think if it was suggested that Britain was supposed to come here and help with race relations or handle reparations with the Native Americans? Why does the phrase "clean up your own mess" leap to mind?
Honestly - I think the two of us should just take over the planet. Turn the whole lot into one big music festival and everyone can be all relaxed and groovy. I need coffee...
no subject
Date: 2004-04-01 11:36 (UTC)First off, it has all alerted me, once again, to two things:
1. I should never talk about anything not involving the phrase 'rock and roll.
2. I should not make replies 2 minutes before going off to class.
Secondly, I realise fully that my reply to you actually makes no sense and somehow I've managed to say the exact opposite of what I mean and think. I'm skilled that way.
...but it means that Americans, and I mean primarily people in power, should try to solve things, should assume they know what's going on. And it has happened before.
OK, how I got from 'I wish the politicians they send periodically to NI at least knew what they were going to talk about' to 'I think Americans should sort it out' is something I'm genuinely baffled at. 'Clean up your own mess' is what I wanted to say. I don't think it's a good idea for American politicians to try and get involved in the situation at all! That was my point and somehow I wrote the opposite. Somehow I wrote the opposite without actually using the accepted rules of, you know, the English language.
When the peace process was in the earlier stages, Clinton sent over people, and the thing I remember from watching the news on TV was 'these guys don't really understand'. And they didn't, just as I'll never be able to understand the Native American situation in America.
And yes, I do think that the stories most Irish Americans get told are glorious stories of warrior kings and tragic tales of a people oppressed. I've yet to be shown anything to say that most Americans believe the Irish experience to be much beyond knowing all the words to Danny Boy and drinking Guinness on 17th March. Is that a sweeping generalisation? Probably, but last year pipe bands at the St Patrick's Day parade in Boston were playing 'Scotland the Brave' at one point.
Does it matter? Not really. I mean, it doesn't matter if most Americans don't know a single thing about Anglo-Irish relations. Until they start talking about it, in which case I would like it (although it's not a requirement) that they do know something about it. Just a sprinkling of knowledge would do.
And I do think isolationism is a kind of original sin, but what's happened is that to compensate for it, the American government went right to the other end of the scale. Your country is a young enough place to have recent original sin. Or something.
But most of all, my post was never really about America. It wasn't about what you guys know or don't know about something that doesn't really matter to you. It wasn't about America at all, in fact.
It was about England, Ireland and the simple fact that there doesn't seem to be a real way to get out of our original sin. Turns out it's not as simple as getting christened. And it destroys me, absolutely destroys me from the inside out.
Last thing: I'm the last person you need to convince that Americans are clever. I've met Americans that astounded me with the sheer amount of knowledge crammed into their minds. I've read Americans that blew my mind. I've met/seen/read Americans that sent me to university for three years to learn about them. I've met/seen/read Americans that made me want to fuck off from this godforsaken little island and come live there. I've also met/seen/read Americans that astounded me with their close-minded bigotry that made me respect the others even more for putting up with them.
And if you think I'm mean to Americans, you should listen to me talking about the English!
In the meantime, I'm going back to rock and roll. I find it hard to say my meaning in anything else.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-01 11:44 (UTC)I just love someone who will argue back at me! *grin*
no subject
Date: 2004-04-01 11:45 (UTC)Oh, I love the arguing, I just honestly do NOT understand how between my head and my typing I managed to reverse my arguments.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-31 17:15 (UTC)